Aroha in action hui: Courageous conversations

[Animated Graphic: Aroha in Action Family Start Hui 2023 graphic]

[Text on screen: Tuku atu, tuku mai Courageous conversations, Hiraani Hutana, Jason Tiatia, Aroha Lee]

[Text on screen: Maraea Teepa]

Maraea Teepa:

This session coming up is Te Hāpai, it’s our panel sessions where we have three kaikōrero and they’ll share their experience of how to have those courageous conversations. We talk about Tuku atu, tuku mai, sort of like a serve and return around how you have conversations, Tuku atu, and how you take on those conversations, those hard conversations. 

So this session is Tuku atu, tuku mai, courageous conversations. We have three awesome kaikōrero from around the motu, two in Ōtautahi and one in I think in Heretaunga could be, but they’ll correct me when we get there. So, kia mau mai whānau. Maybe we’ll go and meet some of our kaimahi. You’ve already met Jason Tiatia, he uri nō Hamoa.

[Text on screen: Jason Tiatia]

Jason is a Brainwave Trust Aotearoa kaiako based in Ōtautahi, awesome dad, really passionate about supporting the revival of te reo and being an awesome sports coach. We know that our coaches are also those people that support whānau. So, that’s Jason.

Our second kaikōrero is Hiraani Hutana.

[Text on screen: Hiraani Hutana]

He uri nō Ngāti Kahungunu ki Porangahau, me Ngāti Porou ki Waipiro. Oh, I love Waipiro. Oh, no not Waipiro itself but Waipiro ki Te Tairāwhiti. Got heaps of cuzzies there. Hiraani’s a māmā of five; oh, she’s pukumahi, and has worked in the early childhood sector for 19 years. Aren’t we lucky? She’s passionate about putting and involving tikanga Māori in all her practice and she will bring a good flavour to our panel today.

And last of all we’ve got the beautiful Aroha Lee. He uri nō Ngāti Kurī, o Ngāi Tahu e te whanaunga.

[Text on screen: Aroha Lee]

She is a prevention education kaiako at STOP, also based in Ōtautahi focusing actually on this kaupapa around courageous conversations.

So we’ve got three awesome kaikōrero. Tēnei te mihi ki a koutou. Whoo, e ngā hoa, ngā mihi. E mihi ana ki a koutou tokotoru. Maybe you’s want to open up with a quick ko wai koutou and how you’re feeling. Jase.

Jason Tiatia:

Yep, mauri ora ki tātou whānau, and talofa, malosi fua. Yes, Jase Tiatia. Thank you for the intro, beautiful intro. And it was quite shameful looking at those videos, at that last video of me it was like, ew. But anyway. Yes, I’m happy to share my knowledge and experiences here at Ōtautahi. Samoan, my wife is Māori, Ngāti Kahungunu, and we have three beautiful tamariki. They speak both languages and they love kura kaupapa Māori. So, looking forward to this kōrero.

Maraea Teepa:

Kia ora. Hiraani.

Hiraani Hutana:

Kia ora koutou. Ko Hiraani Harata Hutana ahau. Āe, he uri tēnei o Ngāti Kahungunu. I’m really happy to be here. We’re in Porangahau at the moment at a karanga noho facilitating so I’ve just popped out, in my aunty’s office ready to share and be inspired as well. Tēnā koutou.

Marae Teepa:

Aroha.

Aroha Lee:

Kia ora. Kia ora tātou. Ko Aroha au, nō Kaikōura. Nō Ōtautahi tōku kāinga ināianei. I am obviously the facilitator with STOP services, here to share a little bit around courageous conversations, maybe in that space, tricky, tricky conversations usually to have. I am the proud māmā of five kōtiro ranging from the ages of 9 years to 22. Been a primary school teacher for 15 years prior to my mahi with STOP services. Yeah, definitely, courageous conversations is right up my alley, so thank you for inviting me. I feel really privileged and humble to be here. Kia ora.

Maraea Teepa:

I think, you know you talked about courageous conversations and we’ve got this bio with this awesome kōrero from you. You know, how do we create safe and inclusive spaces around having these courageous conversations?

Hiraani Hutana:

How do we create safe places? I think, I love the courageous conversation, but if you channel that just straight through aroha conversations then straightaway it’s a safe conversation. And then it’s courageous in all its mana in that. So, that’s how I would frame it from the get-go, I’m off to have an aroha conversation with our whānau, and then straightaway it’s safe. Pea?

Maraea Teepa:

Ka pai. And sometimes even when we’re having aroha conversations, when things get tricky what are some of your strategies that you use Jason, even in the coaching space because whether we’re in family harm or family violence and the coaching, sometimes there’s some angry people on those sidelines. What are some of your strategies around having those kōrero to some of those sideline coaches?

Jason Tiatia:

Oh, man, I’m glad you brought that one up. That’s a good example actually. Some of our parents mean well, eh, but sometimes that comes out, and I can relate my mum is usually one of those parents and she’s on the sideline and in Samoan, in English, and everything else that goes with it. So I try to encourage, if you do have a challenge communicating or supporting in a way that’s appropriate, we do praise them for looking for new ways or new methods. Or breathing to start with. But really tautoko what the Hiraani’s idea around leading with empathy, leading with aroha, and that way you’re sort of acknowledging, hey, I know you’re trying, can you try a little bit harder sort of thing, keep going though. Yeah.

Maraea Teepa:

For some of our kaimahi going into our whare and we have to have, you know, you can feel some wairua that, you know, kids might have woken up and not been in a happy mood, and māmā or the whānau just might need a kōrero and just to calm. Jason, how do we regulate the whānau’s brain so that they can start thinking well, because this is, when we’re having courageous conversations, we’ve got to get them to a place of aroha?

Jason Tiatia:

Yeah, it’s a really good question. Because I mean, regulating means different things for different people, but it’s actually just finding ways to have a really good conversation. We usually have a dinnertime conversation, say, ‘Hey, I really loved how you did this,’ acknowledging, and then, ‘Hey, tomorrow morning be prepared. These are the things that we need you to do and I’ll do this, are you okay with that?’ So try and find ways to serve and return because that Tuku atu, tuku mai example it goes everywhere, everyday. So I’m coming from my experience. I’ve got a 16, 14, and a ten-year old, and the 16 and the ten-year old share a room. So the 16-year old likes laze around and take her time. The ten-year old is a bit more organised actually. She wants things precise and accurate. So, we try to sort of make sure that they have their own strategies and kind of empower them. But that’s one strategy to look at. But just communicating that all the time.

Maraea Teepa:

Aroha, one kaupapa that we want to talk about is to have those conversations are when we feel that family harm have happened that morning, or even that evening. How do you broach that kōrero with whānau, or family sexual harm? With aroha, with aroha.

Aroha Lee:

That is always a really challenging scenario to go into. When we’re talking about that regulation concept I think that it’s also really important to remember that our regulation can assist in regulating others. So, if we’re actually ready for that and we’ve processed a lot of that, and we’ve got our revs down real low, then hopefully we can transmit that into a bit of co-regulating in that space.

But I usually like to lean in with, can I help you, is there any way that I can awhi and assist? And just opening the platform for somebody to come forward, and taking time to allow that conversation to come forward. I feel like if we force any kind of reo that isn’t naturally coming, we normally get a barrier, a wall as well. So, whether that looks like some form of manaaki coming into the home, you know, ‘Whaea, actually I bought us a cup of tea today and got these snacks,’ and how the tamariki let’s, you know, ‘Let’s do that mahi together, let’s keep this real calm,’ and then go gently together.

Maraea Teepa:

And I think that’s a big kaupapa is really about how do we go gently into these kaupapa? Cause whānau… And with our whānau workers within five families, like they’re going into kāinga. So how do you keep yourself safe, how do you keep yourself safe, Hiraani, when you know that a kaupapa’s happened and kua raru te whānau? What are your sort of own experiences around keeping yourself safe?

Hiraani Hutana:

Oh, I just try and keep it at my rae, at the forefront, whakaaro rangatira ki te rangatira, so chief to chief. So, if I’m going into the home or if I’m having a conversation with whānau members at the kōhunghunga, I’m doing it with… viewing them as rangatira and keeping my rangatiratanga. Because the end goal is to respect our little rangatira which are our tamariki, nē. So that’s kind of where I keep myself safe by… me te tuku atu, eh, whakaaro rangatira ki te rangatira. You can go into wānanga with that and that can look different to many people. Then your body just flows from there because you exude that aroha, you have a good countenance on your kanohi, you’re speaking respectfully and so a scene is setting, all the raru is coming away. And then, picking up what Aroha said when you just let things flow, you know, and then wairua can come in, aye. Ae.

Maraea Teepa:

Āe, ka pai. And that’s the whole thing is like, how do we set wairua when the wairua is heightened, eh? How do we get it back down to a place of… I think about Kurawaka, you know, that essential clay that Tāne-mahuta needed to form the first wahine, Hineahuone, and he went in search for that clay, Kurawaka. So it’s like regulating and actually here I found that essential place.

So when we think about what essential tools you might have within your own kete, what are the tools that you take into kāinga or working with whānau that support you to have these conversations? Aroha.

Aroha Lee:

Āe, I think I’m a bit naughty in that whole concept of always kai.

Maraea Teepa:

Nice.

Aroha Lee: 

Always noa, always love. Yeah, in my space, and for a lot of Māori I would anticipate that we’re still feeling this vibe is that, you know, the food is love and that’s part of my language to you is that the offering of manaaki. I also, sometimes, will check myself, so as a tool. You know, how are you feeling about this? Am I triggered? Do I need to unpack something before I head into that space? Just to go with as little judgement and bias as possible, because we all carry it, it’s a safety mechanism that our brain makes us hold. And just leaning in with empathy. I think that is kind of one of my super powers, because I feel really deeply and sometimes it’s really helpful in those spaces.

Maraea Teepa:

I think that’s really important when thinking about unconscious bias, and I really like that you brought it up. So when we think about unconscious bias, how do we promote self-reflection for our kaimahi that go into whare? How do you do that Jason in the work that you do in supporting whānau?

Jason Tiatia:

[Text on screen: Jason Tiatia]

Well, always it’s a self-talk for me. So when I jump back in the car or even go back to the office, it’s just like a debrief for myself, eh, just thinking, ‘I could have said this better, I could have maybe handed this or sort of set the scene a little bit better.’ Or, we’re always quite hard on ourselves, but even coming back to your own brand just around that medulla. The medulla is the smoke alarm that is always going to be there firing things around and protecting yourself. But also the hippocampus. Hippocampus, we want to sort of create more better memories, better experiences. So how I, for me reflecting, I guess the biggest one is making sure that you always want to do better than last time.

The next step is, these are the things I will work on for next time. And it doesn’t happen overnight, believe me, but at least you’re heading towards and making the efforts and actually consciously, actually trying to have a go. I think that’s the important side is that, don’t be too hard on yourself. There’s a couple of things that people do, is the pain and pleasure, but also we like to point out things that we’re always wrong with. It’s always not the correct way it’s actually being kind to yourself first and then actually evaluate. So that’s how I, I always try to think above the line. So above the line there’s always that positive thinking or solution based and not so much sort of looking after the below the line. As humans we’re very, very good at below the line sort of, you’re critical, and you’re not this, and you’re that, but instead of this, that pointing the finger we can actually go, ‘Actually I could have done better, these are the things I will do.’ So that reflecting is a big part, so thanks for that opportunity.

Maraea Teepa:

Ka pai. And Hiraani, you’re at a karanga wānanga and you’re facilitating a karanga wānanga and you’ve got a different voice. You know, when we think about tikanga and the use of karanga, how can we use our karanga voice to bring our whānau together and back together?

Hiraani Hutana:

[Text on screen: Hiraani Hutana]

Karanga, a voice to bring whānau together. Well it’s a call, eh. He kupu whaiora oro, so it has a message and it has a vibration. So it’s kind of like this wānanga here. So we’re going to go into homes and we’re going to talk to whānau and we’re going to have, you know, a message. There’s going to be a conversation, but there’s also an oro, a vibration. So you need to, as a tangata, as a person, tāne, wahine, find out kaiako, a social worker, what’s your oro, what’s your vibration? What does that look like for you? And so, for some of us it might be the kai, you know, that manaakitanga. For some of us, like tangibly, I will, I have, I love whakataukī kāri, you know, I set the scene. ‘Oh, sis, I got this for you. I just thought this related to what we were talking about the other week.’ And then, immediately, you’re going into an aroha conversation, you’re going into wānanga, kind of. We all have different vibrations and oro and a way of doing things to get a message across for our tamariki.

Maraea Teepa:

Ka pai. When we think about our whānau workers is around how do they go into a kāinga and make sure that they’re ora and they’re well. And you talked about you always take your own tools, the bro’s really reflected, and Aroha has always shared that whole thing around that bias space and making sure that you’re wairua is in a space where you’re not being biased around what you’re hearing and what you’re seeing in the kāinga.

So, I think one big part for me is, you know sometimes I don’t know how to… even just with my own whānau, how do you address a problem when someone is older than you? You know, as a tamaiti like how do you have those conversations? Jason. Because in this workshop, in this panel, we’ve got 13 kids, three people. So we’ve got a big whānau here. Like, how do you have those courageous conversations with our tamariki? So that the parents can have that.

Jason Tiatia:

Look, I live with my parents at the back. They’ve got their own unit. They have their own way of raising kids too, right? They raised me and I’ve turned out not too bad, Maraea. I’m okay. But the thing is, I guess, some of the strategies on how to I guess, send that message to the mums and dads or the elderly, or the mātua of our world, and they’re the wise ones of course. But we also have good knowledge of how to do it today. And I think education is always a give and take. So for me, I’ve had that type of conversation with my own mum. I said to mum, “Mum, you can’t hit the kids anymore, you can’t do that, yeah.” And she’s like, “Why not?” And I’m like, “Mum, calm down.” “I’m okay.” I said, “Look, mum, we’ll have a coffee soon. Okay.”

We come back and we keep building on that longer conversation and she comes around and said, “Look, thanks son, I appreciate that.” And in our own language too so using the reo. We use reo Hamoa. And it’s a beautiful thing. Now we’re a lot more closer, she’s doing her best, she’s regulating her own mind and her own brain, and even her body changes too. So it’s an important side. Working with our elders is an important part because they want to be part of our lives, the kids’ lives as well. Keep enhancing that, keep the respect at the forefront but then keep challenging them too.

Maraea Teepa:

I think that’s a really important one. We’ve probably got two minutes left to go. Aroha, this is a pātai for you. How do we keep that dynamic of whānau, you know, the voice, and making sure that everyone’s being heard in this kōrero? Because I think that sometimes we forget making sure that everyone’s voice is being heard. What are your strategies?

Aroha Lee:

[Text on screen: Aroha Lee]

In the kind of context of the question that was just asked before about tamariki, for us, I actually follow quite avidly some of Liz Hart’s work, from Tupuna Parenting. I’m definitely a fan girl in that space, and share that with all of my whānau as much as I can and keep reminding all of my whānau that all of our children carry that tapu and that mana, and how do we continue to enhance their mana. And the way that we do that as really amazing parents is by allowing their voice to be heard and acknowledged, and received well. Which can be quite challenging when you’ve been raised in a whānau like mine where you did exactly what you were told, when you were told, otherwise there was quite harsh consequence here.

So, just once again, still going gently because we can’t change the whole fabric of the way that we used to be and do overnight. But it is beautiful and lovely to have those supporting resources coming out of that space to keep enhancing that kaupapa that we all need to be heard, and we’re in this waka together.

Maraea Teepa:

Ka pai. And I think that’s a really important thing is that we’re in the waka together and you don’t have to go it alone. What I’ve heard from you, you don’t go it alone. Who are your support systems when it is a hard out kōrero? Who supports you Hiraani?

Hiraani Hutana:

Oh, it’s your colleagues. So, if you’re working along, you know, I mean you’re on one, one, a one, waka so you’re one mind, one sound, and you have those conversations. And I guess, you know, you’ll have your partners at home. And even further, like you’ve got your kaumātua. So I love that, you know, we can have our courageous conversations with our kaumātua but we actually can go to them for advice. When we go and serve with them then we can unpeel some of the tohu and gems that they have ready to drop for us, but as well as have little conversations of what it looks like now in our world, eh.

Maraea Teepa:

We’re probably going to go into our pātai whānau.

[Slide on screen: Pātai for Tuku Atu, Tuku Mai panel]

Do you find whānau respect you more after a courageous conversation? That’s to anyone.

Jason Tiatia:

I’ll quickly answer that one for me. Yeah, I think it does strengthen your… Like I said earlier, it doesn’t happen overnight, but they do come around and actually they’re curious again about the next step and the next step. So, I think that’s important to understand, it’s courageous because you’re brave enough to talk about the elephant in the room. And then it becomes, ‘Oh, actually it wasn’t too bad.’ So, I think that’s one of those things, once you start the conversation, be brave, be brave, keep holding onto that and working forwards. So, yes, it does work.

Maraea Teepa:

And I think it is being brave. And I think the other pātai, and this is to you Hiraani, what’s your best advice when working with whānau who have, are dishonest about what is actually happening?

Hiraani Hutana:

Yeah, that one would be tricky. Dishonest, I guess, then maybe we just as a kaimahi look at what the connection is. So, if they’re being dishonest with you, then obviously that’s just something that they have in their kete to get a means. So, I would look back to how I connect, so it’s connections. It’s not going to happen straightaway, and if I’m going to keep whakaaro rangatira ki te rangatira then we’re not going to have a big fight about the dishonesty straightaway. So I would relook at my strategies and how are these connecting with that whānau, and try again. Yeah. Hope that answers the question.

Maraea Teepa:

Yes, it does. And I think that’s a big kaupapa. When we think about the next pātai, and I will put this onto you Aroha.

[Slide on screen: Pātai for Tuku Atu, Tuku Mai panel]

How do you have conversations when topics like sexual abuse is your topic for the rā with a whānau?

Aroha Lee:

Initially, any conversation that I have about any topic really, I like to give an acknowledgement to the person that is offered the kōrero. Especially if we are leaning into the sexual harm space, that’s not an easy conversation for anybody to have regardless of what space you’re in. So, I’m not sure if you’re aware but usually harm works for people that have made mistakes, yeah, and have caused the harm. So for us, we definitely, we always, we want to encourage people to change behaviours, so our communities are safer. And then, also, still acknowledging and holding that person that the harm has happened to really, really gently and carefully.

How do I have the conversations? Usually, once again with lots and lots of care. Like, you know, I wouldn’t promise anything in regards to if we’re talking about disclosures. Sometimes help needs to be sought in other spaces, so definitely don’t want to promise something that I can’t honour. And slowly, strategically working a plan forward because these things generally can’t be resolved overnight.

Maraea Teepa:

[Slide on screen: Pātai for Tuku Atu, Tuku Mai panel]

Āe, tika tāhau. One of our Tuku Mai reflections is this session had made me reflect on the strategies I use to communicate with different members of my own whānau, my own family, when I have these tough conversations regarding how to respond and deal with these matters.

As a new member, staff member here.

[Slide on screen: Pātai for Tuku Atu, Tuku Mai panel]

This is another Tuku Mai kōrero, a member here. But nurturing the relationship will lead to better reception to how to kōrero, exactly what all three of you’s talked about.

[Slide on screen: Pātai for Tuku Atu, Tuku Mai panel]

The last reflection kōrero is I believe if we teach our whānau the way we want them to be we should show them how to. It’s interesting, that’s a nice reflection because a lot of whānau that we’ve worked sometimes they don’t know what love looks like and it looks like a different love to what a lot of whānau, especially in the family harm space.

Don’t forget whānau, we’ve still got heaps more kōrero. It’s time to put any more question in. I think one question from me is, what are your top tips probably, each of you. Maybe two top tips around having courageous, setting the scene to have a courageous conversation. And we'll jump to the sis, Hiraani. Tuatahi. Same question.

Hiraani Hutana:

[Text on screen: Hiraani Hutana]

Top tips, well it’s in the word aroha. Aro present, so be present. So that looks like lots of things, like it can look like, setting the scene physically as well but being present with that whānau, knowing who they are, what’s happening, the kaupapa. And hā, essence, eh. So ko te hā te essence. So, sharing in your goodwill and your aroha, and it will be reciprocated. It might not come straightaway if the circumstances are huge. Those are like the little tools I have, is be present and in hā, hā to hā, in essence of aroha, eh. Getting a good outcome for our tamariki.

Maraea Teepa:

Pēhea koe Jason, what are your two tips for the whānau?

Jason Tiatia:

[Text on screen: Jason Tiatia]

I would say like, all of us would agree, food, eh. Food is a key part. Breaking bread with people is a really awesome thing. I like to build rapport just by having a laugh, just start with it. Sometimes you just need to be vulnerable ourselves sometime, you know, but not too vulnerable you’re over-sharing. But something that the people can relate to. I think that’s one of our, probably our strengths on the panel is that we build rapport first before we dive into any issue. That would be me, just sharing, if it’s a coffee, if it’s a different beverage, or food, I think that will connect us a little bit more before even going into any other issues.

Maraea Teepa:

Pēhea koe, Aroha?

Aroha Lee:

[Text on screen: Aroha Lee]

So for me, yeah, even before I walk through that door, and once again that assumption, that bias, I’m like checking myself, I’m making sure that I, you know, that I’m to, that I’m offering the best mauri that I can at that time and place and you’re just going with aroha, and with love and empathy, kindness.

Maraea Teepa:

Yeah, we’ve still got stuff coming through.

From a Samoan perspective acknowledging cultural sensitivity to any sex topics, how would you address this with a mature, elderly community and clients regarding sexual harm and education?

I’m going to give this to, kei a koe, whether it’s Jason or either Aroha, or the whānau. Who would like to answer this?

Jason Tiatia:

Well, I’m probably not the expert in that space but being Samoan…

Aroha Lee:

They’re smiling at you Jason.

[Laughter]

Jason Tiatia:

Being Samoan, and my own personal, I guess, journey. Yeah, it’s a really hard one, because we’re very private people and the same type of community focus too. So for me, I would carefully tread around the cultural side, building whoever the leadership are in that space, and actually slowly, slowly before sort of diving deep as well. So it’s a real challenge. I’ve seen some great outcomes and sometimes not so good, because it’s a real issue. But if we have a mind the intent is to keep our kids safe and support the whānau member or members, then I think there will always be some form of a good result, if that makes sense. So, yeah, being Samoan I know culturally le va is a really important space, so building carefully before even… If you’re going to meet with that issue, having a minister or someone like that in that space, and sometimes the opposite, or having someone who’s totally outside the community, so it really depends.

Maraea Teepa:

Kia ora te whānau. I think, oh do you have a kōrero Aroha?

Aroha Lee:

Actually just I was thinking at an organisational level, this isn’t within our home, but all of mahi that we do moving forward in regards to prevention we work alongside our mana whenua, where they have been feeding into our kaupapa and critiquing our mahi, so that, that really earnest contribution from our whānau has enabled us to have far more frequent conversations about keeping whānau safe.

So I think it’s pretty amazing for a Tauiwi organisation to be this committed and I’m really, really proud to work in this service. I think when it comes to, when we’re talking about people, our kaumātua, I would say it’s very similar in Māori whānau. My grandparents really struggled with the mahi that I do, not that they’re not proud of me. We’ve always talked about family matters being very private, very, very private and you don’t air your dirty laundry and things like that. And as we know the statistics for harm in Māori whānau they’re quite high. I do need to remind them that the reason that we have to do the work that we’re doing is because we love our children fiercely.

And so just that acknowledgement of reminding my own whānau why we need to be brave and courageous. It goes down okay, I don’t know how it would work with whānau outside of mine, but I think the people that are having that type of kōrero needs a really solid connection, otherwise you would probably be met with resistance. Yeah.

Maraea Teepa:

Ka pai. That’s awesome advice from all of you. Tēnei ka mihi ki a tātou. Kua kapi te wā ki a tātou. We’ve finished for today, and a real big mihi to our awesome kaikōrero i te rā nei, e mihi kau nei ki a koutou tokotoru. We’re luck to have had your kōrero and awesome. Tēnei te mihi ki a koutou. Hei waiata tautoko mā tātou. 

[Image on screen: Illustration on main points]

[Animated Graphic: Aroha in Action Family Start Hui 2023 graphic]

[Text on screen: Presented by]

[Graphic: Tākai logo]